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	<title>Comments for Beijing Sounds -- 北京的声儿</title>
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	<link>http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs</link>
	<description>Beijing sounds, mostly language, through foreign ears.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Blogroll &#8212; China-related blogs by syz</title>
		<link>http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/01/blogroll-china-related-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-4687</link>
		<dc:creator>syz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/?p=17#comment-4687</guid>
		<description>@stuart: ha! Technically, I don't think what I said necessarily implies that (and it certainly wasn't intended to), but it does come across as pretty dismissive. Ouch.

Even more pain from the fact that I've &lt;a href="http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/09/blogroll-ii/" rel="nofollow"&gt;updated this old blogroll&lt;/a&gt; and you're still not there!

I don't remember when I started reading FoundinChina regularly, but it's been in my reader for a while. I've been thinking of a blogroll update sometime in early '09, so look for that.

In the meantime, I'm honored and humbled to be blogrolled at FIC, especially because it was (as I dig into the records) specifically because of the &lt;a href="http://foundinchina.com/2008/05/08/mount-qomolangma-where%E2%80%99s-that-old-sport/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Qomolangma incident&lt;/a&gt;, which never fails to make me chortle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@stuart: ha! Technically, I don&#8217;t think what I said necessarily implies that (and it certainly wasn&#8217;t intended to), but it does come across as pretty dismissive. Ouch.</p>
<p>Even more pain from the fact that I&#8217;ve <a href="http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/09/blogroll-ii/" rel="nofollow">updated this old blogroll</a> and you&#8217;re still not there!</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t remember when I started reading FoundinChina regularly, but it&#8217;s been in my reader for a while. I&#8217;ve been thinking of a blogroll update sometime in early &#8216;09, so look for that.</p>
<p>In the meantime, I&#8217;m honored and humbled to be blogrolled at FIC, especially because it was (as I dig into the records) specifically because of the <a href="http://foundinchina.com/2008/05/08/mount-qomolangma-where%E2%80%99s-that-old-sport/" rel="nofollow">Qomolangma incident</a>, which never fails to make me chortle.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Blogroll &#8212; China-related blogs by stuart</title>
		<link>http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/01/blogroll-china-related-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-4685</link>
		<dc:creator>stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:56:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/?p=17#comment-4685</guid>
		<description>It's a harsh lesson the day you learn that you have 'no value'. ;) 

That said, it's hard to disagree with your assessment in relation to the sites listed above, both in terms of category and quality. Rest assured, bjshengr will remain on my blogroll</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a harsh lesson the day you learn that you have &#8216;no value&#8217;. <img src='http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>That said, it&#8217;s hard to disagree with your assessment in relation to the sites listed above, both in terms of category and quality. Rest assured, bjshengr will remain on my blogroll</p>
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		<title>Comment on Saturday sounds like this by syz</title>
		<link>http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/12/saturday-sounds-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-4620</link>
		<dc:creator>syz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/?p=300#comment-4620</guid>
		<description>Oh, André , I can't speak to your ass-fulness, but most of my friends (along with pretty much all my family, perhaps excepting my parents) disagree with me. So I'm glad to have you in the group.

But I still think you are "confusing the remedy for a problem with its cause" -- a quote from &lt;a href="http://www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/east_asian_languages.html rel="nofollow"&gt;this text on Pinyin.info&lt;/a&gt;, and that it is precisely the characters that force people into a self-perpetrating cycle of writing stuff that is ambiguous if spoken. 

Not that I think abandonment of characters would necessarily be easy or helpful at this point. Zev Handel has helped convince me (see some discussion on &lt;a href="http://pinyin.info/news/2008/ovid-tzeng-reiterates-backing-for-hanyu-pinyin/" rel="nofollow"&gt;this pinyin.info post&lt;/a&gt;) that there are some really deep-rooted monsters in that idea. And not that it matters what I think! But I still think there's a lot of confusion about cause and effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, André , I can&#8217;t speak to your ass-fulness, but most of my friends (along with pretty much all my family, perhaps excepting my parents) disagree with me. So I&#8217;m glad to have you in the group.</p>
<p>But I still think you are &#8220;confusing the remedy for a problem with its cause&#8221; &#8212; a quote from <a href="http://www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/east_asian_languages.html rel="nofollow">this text on Pinyin.info</a>, and that it is precisely the characters that force people into a self-perpetrating cycle of writing stuff that is ambiguous if spoken. </p>
<p>Not that I think abandonment of characters would necessarily be easy or helpful at this point. Zev Handel has helped convince me (see some discussion on <a href="http://pinyin.info/news/2008/ovid-tzeng-reiterates-backing-for-hanyu-pinyin/" rel="nofollow">this pinyin.info post</a>) that there are some really deep-rooted monsters in that idea. And not that it matters what I think! But I still think there&#8217;s a lot of confusion about cause and effect.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Onion in&#8230; Zhonglish?! by syz</title>
		<link>http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/12/the-onion-in-zhonglish/comment-page-1/#comment-4619</link>
		<dc:creator>syz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/?p=342#comment-4619</guid>
		<description>Nice handle, @dim summary! Funny thing is, I also thought he was saying 先生 at the beginning, but then I started second-guessing myself cuz it didn't seem respectful enough (as if I know anything about such things!). The chuan2jiao4 seems right in sound and semantics. I knew it had to be something like that, but I'm glad you got it. I'll put it in the post now.

@Claw -- I'm in total agreement that there are lots of flavors of Mandarin, and that's why I don't see this as an open &#038; shut case of Zhonglish. Still, since most of the rest of the speech seems fairly standard putonghua-ish, I think it's likely that the tone sandhi I singled out are more likely to be non-native speaker errors. Some kind of consistency (even if it's non-standard) would argue for a native speaker of a different dialect of Mandarin, don't you think? But if I find someone who says he sounds exactly like a person from X, I might have to change my tune.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice handle, @dim summary! Funny thing is, I also thought he was saying 先生 at the beginning, but then I started second-guessing myself cuz it didn&#8217;t seem respectful enough (as if I know anything about such things!). The chuan2jiao4 seems right in sound and semantics. I knew it had to be something like that, but I&#8217;m glad you got it. I&#8217;ll put it in the post now.</p>
<p>@Claw &#8212; I&#8217;m in total agreement that there are lots of flavors of Mandarin, and that&#8217;s why I don&#8217;t see this as an open &#038; shut case of Zhonglish. Still, since most of the rest of the speech seems fairly standard putonghua-ish, I think it&#8217;s likely that the tone sandhi I singled out are more likely to be non-native speaker errors. Some kind of consistency (even if it&#8217;s non-standard) would argue for a native speaker of a different dialect of Mandarin, don&#8217;t you think? But if I find someone who says he sounds exactly like a person from X, I might have to change my tune.</p>
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		<title>Comment on 哪=nǎ/něi你们的看法 by Claw</title>
		<link>http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/12/%e5%93%aan%c7%8enei-%e4%bd%a0%e4%bb%ac%e7%9a%84%e7%9c%8b%e6%b3%95/comment-page-1/#comment-4617</link>
		<dc:creator>Claw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/?p=265#comment-4617</guid>
		<description>syz: Very true.  Něi appears to have been lexicalized beyond its original contraction and generalized to apply before classifiers even for numbers other than one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>syz: Very true.  Něi appears to have been lexicalized beyond its original contraction and generalized to apply before classifiers even for numbers other than one.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Humble-V says Veng Veng by syz</title>
		<link>http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/10/the-humble-v-says-veng-veng/comment-page-1/#comment-4616</link>
		<dc:creator>syz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/?p=231#comment-4616</guid>
		<description>Good stuff, Claw. I'd put that in the category of Chinese believing that foreigners should speak biāozhǔn / straight standard Mandarin rather than anything remotely localized. Even happens with my own mother-in-law (see &lt;a href="http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/12/saturday-sounds-like-this/" rel="nofollow"&gt;this post&lt;/a&gt;) despite my having learned a lot of my Mandarin from her. 

But in defense of the Chinese, I think that's sorta true all over. Even Americans, quite accustomed to foreigners who speak English well, might be surprised to find an intermediate speaker with signs of, say, a Texan accent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good stuff, Claw. I&#8217;d put that in the category of Chinese believing that foreigners should speak biāozhǔn / straight standard Mandarin rather than anything remotely localized. Even happens with my own mother-in-law (see <a href="http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/12/saturday-sounds-like-this/" rel="nofollow">this post</a>) despite my having learned a lot of my Mandarin from her. </p>
<p>But in defense of the Chinese, I think that&#8217;s sorta true all over. Even Americans, quite accustomed to foreigners who speak English well, might be surprised to find an intermediate speaker with signs of, say, a Texan accent.</p>
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		<title>Comment on 哪=nǎ/něi你们的看法 by syz</title>
		<link>http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/12/%e5%93%aan%c7%8enei-%e4%bd%a0%e4%bb%ac%e7%9a%84%e7%9c%8b%e6%b3%95/comment-page-1/#comment-4615</link>
		<dc:creator>syz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/?p=265#comment-4615</guid>
		<description>Hi Claw, never too late to comment -- glad you found bjs! Clearly you and Randy are in pretty close agreement, but to be more precise about your statement, "něi is actually a contraction of nǎyī", I think you'd have to add that it might have started out as a contraction, but it has now expanded to something more. Otherwise a sentence like the driver's （哪"něi"两个字儿）wouldn't be grammatical cuz it would expand to 哪一两个字儿, right? On the other hand, it seems to have retained some of the grammar of being a contraction since it seems like "哪"něi"是我的" is ungrammatical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Claw, never too late to comment &#8212; glad you found bjs! Clearly you and Randy are in pretty close agreement, but to be more precise about your statement, &#8220;něi is actually a contraction of nǎyī&#8221;, I think you&#8217;d have to add that it might have started out as a contraction, but it has now expanded to something more. Otherwise a sentence like the driver&#8217;s （哪&#8221;něi&#8221;两个字儿）wouldn&#8217;t be grammatical cuz it would expand to 哪一两个字儿, right? On the other hand, it seems to have retained some of the grammar of being a contraction since it seems like &#8220;哪&#8221;něi&#8221;是我的&#8221; is ungrammatical.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Humble-V says Veng Veng by Claw</title>
		<link>http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/10/the-humble-v-says-veng-veng/comment-page-1/#comment-4571</link>
		<dc:creator>Claw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:17:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/?p=231#comment-4571</guid>
		<description>My past Chinese teacher was originally from Tianjin and he used the [ʋ] pronunciation.  In fact, before I knew any better, I used the [ʋ] pronunciation too because I picked it up from him, and some people would give me a puzzled look because of that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My past Chinese teacher was originally from Tianjin and he used the [ʋ] pronunciation.  In fact, before I knew any better, I used the [ʋ] pronunciation too because I picked it up from him, and some people would give me a puzzled look because of that.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Onion in&#8230; Zhonglish?! by Claw</title>
		<link>http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/12/the-onion-in-zhonglish/comment-page-1/#comment-4570</link>
		<dc:creator>Claw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/?p=342#comment-4570</guid>
		<description>I think it's important to remember that Mandarin is not the first language for much of the Chinese population, and even for the ones where it is, the Mandarin that they learn may have differences with the promulgated standard (for instance, in Sichuan Mandarin, the contours of the third and fourth tones are essentially switched from the standard).

So, I don't think this is really a case of Zhonglish; perhaps he's a native speaker of another Chinese variety though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s important to remember that Mandarin is not the first language for much of the Chinese population, and even for the ones where it is, the Mandarin that they learn may have differences with the promulgated standard (for instance, in Sichuan Mandarin, the contours of the third and fourth tones are essentially switched from the standard).</p>
<p>So, I don&#8217;t think this is really a case of Zhonglish; perhaps he&#8217;s a native speaker of another Chinese variety though.</p>
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		<title>Comment on 哪=nǎ/něi你们的看法 by Claw</title>
		<link>http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/12/%e5%93%aan%c7%8enei-%e4%bd%a0%e4%bb%ac%e7%9a%84%e7%9c%8b%e6%b3%95/comment-page-1/#comment-4569</link>
		<dc:creator>Claw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/?p=265#comment-4569</guid>
		<description>Excuse me for the late post... I just bumped into your blog so I just read this entry.  The logic of when you can use něi vs. nǎ is actually pretty straightforward.  It helps to remember that 哪 when pronounced as něi is actually a contraction of nǎyī (哪一).  The same thing similarly applies to nèi = nàyī (那一) and zhèi = zhèyī (这一).

This is why, as Randy noted, that when preceding a classifier, you use the -ei pronuncation, because a number generally precedes a classifier.  [Technically speaking, both pronunciations are acceptable before a classifier because the number is optional when it is equal to one (e.g., 我有一本书 vs. 我有本书), though the -ei pronunciation appears to be more popular for this case anyway.]

Applying the logic above, the sentence, "哪是我的？" can &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; be pronounced "&lt;b&gt;nǎ&lt;/b&gt; shi wǒ de?" because replacing 哪 with 哪一 in this case would make the sentence ungrammatical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse me for the late post&#8230; I just bumped into your blog so I just read this entry.  The logic of when you can use něi vs. nǎ is actually pretty straightforward.  It helps to remember that 哪 when pronounced as něi is actually a contraction of nǎyī (哪一).  The same thing similarly applies to nèi = nàyī (那一) and zhèi = zhèyī (这一).</p>
<p>This is why, as Randy noted, that when preceding a classifier, you use the -ei pronuncation, because a number generally precedes a classifier.  [Technically speaking, both pronunciations are acceptable before a classifier because the number is optional when it is equal to one (e.g., 我有一本书 vs. 我有本书), though the -ei pronunciation appears to be more popular for this case anyway.]</p>
<p>Applying the logic above, the sentence, &#8220;哪是我的？&#8221; can <i>only</i> be pronounced &#8220;<b>nǎ</b> shi wǒ de?&#8221; because replacing 哪 with 哪一 in this case would make the sentence ungrammatical.</p>
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